amitjoey
07-10 02:46 PM
no wonder they are talking about impeachment of GWB and Sr Mcain's press conf. no news of this protest.. I like the way Michael moore trashed them yesterday in his live interview with Wolf on why and how CNN neglected his story all along..
CNN sucks big time and others are not too far behind
WRITE TO politicalticker@cnn.com
CNN sucks big time and others are not too far behind
WRITE TO politicalticker@cnn.com
wallpaper sky and a sun
greenkard
03-15 02:29 PM
already did that. Is calling the only thing at the moment? Why don't you let EB3 guys talk a little?
My friend suggested this forum. Looks to be very good site and seems to be active. I am EB# from India.
Can you tell me why EB3 is lagging so much
My friend suggested this forum. Looks to be very good site and seems to be active. I am EB# from India.
Can you tell me why EB3 is lagging so much
amitjoey
07-09 05:54 PM
Hello <TV station name>:
I am writing to you to give you a heads-up on a news story which is
about to happen on July 10th 2007. If you have been following the
issue of Immigration in the news lately, the United States Citizenship
and Immigration Services (USCIS) along with the Department of
State(DoS) announced an update to the July Visa bulletin essentially
eliminating any chances to apply for "Adjustment of Status" aka. the
last stage of the Green Card/Permanent Residency process. This
bulletin was was originally published during the mid month of June
inviting all legal immigrants to apply for Permanent Residency.
The Visa bulletin is a formal communication method to all Immigration
adjudication officers and personnel in National and International
consular offices of the United States of America, advising the
personnel of the availability of Permanent Resident visas which are
capped at 140,000 a year worldwide. The system has already forced many
delays and approx. 400,000 applications are back-logged.
This update was released on July 2nd, the first business day for the
month of July. Thousands of dollars were spent in legal fees and
medical examination fees by some 200,000 highly skilled legal
immigrants who chose to follow the rules and abide by the laws.
Several lawsuits have been filed against USCIS and DoS asking for
reimbursement of legal and medical expenses by AILF (American
Immigration Law Foundation) and AILA (American Immigrant Lawyers
Association).
The Legal immigrant community backed by ImmigrationVoice.org (a 15,000
strong group representing the Highly Skilled Legal Immigrants
Community) is resorting to a unique way of protesting this decision.
We have decided to take a leaf out of Mahatma Gandhi's book and send a
dozen flowers to the USCIS Director Emilio Gonzalez as a way of
protesting against this debacle brought upon by the high handedness of
the two departments.
Please find attached the Press release from ImmigrationVoice detailing
this protest.
As always, you folks at <TV Station> have always given unbiased coverage to
events, both local and nation wide. I hope you will cover this story
and bring to light this case of cheating by the USCIS and Dept. of
State.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me @ <your-number/contact info>
Best regards,
<Your-name>
REFERENCES:
-----------------------
http://www.immigrationvoice.org
News recording of the Coverage by NBC Nightly news:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVhgb6yoc8w
Thanks for your efforts, this is exactly what we need.
I am writing to you to give you a heads-up on a news story which is
about to happen on July 10th 2007. If you have been following the
issue of Immigration in the news lately, the United States Citizenship
and Immigration Services (USCIS) along with the Department of
State(DoS) announced an update to the July Visa bulletin essentially
eliminating any chances to apply for "Adjustment of Status" aka. the
last stage of the Green Card/Permanent Residency process. This
bulletin was was originally published during the mid month of June
inviting all legal immigrants to apply for Permanent Residency.
The Visa bulletin is a formal communication method to all Immigration
adjudication officers and personnel in National and International
consular offices of the United States of America, advising the
personnel of the availability of Permanent Resident visas which are
capped at 140,000 a year worldwide. The system has already forced many
delays and approx. 400,000 applications are back-logged.
This update was released on July 2nd, the first business day for the
month of July. Thousands of dollars were spent in legal fees and
medical examination fees by some 200,000 highly skilled legal
immigrants who chose to follow the rules and abide by the laws.
Several lawsuits have been filed against USCIS and DoS asking for
reimbursement of legal and medical expenses by AILF (American
Immigration Law Foundation) and AILA (American Immigrant Lawyers
Association).
The Legal immigrant community backed by ImmigrationVoice.org (a 15,000
strong group representing the Highly Skilled Legal Immigrants
Community) is resorting to a unique way of protesting this decision.
We have decided to take a leaf out of Mahatma Gandhi's book and send a
dozen flowers to the USCIS Director Emilio Gonzalez as a way of
protesting against this debacle brought upon by the high handedness of
the two departments.
Please find attached the Press release from ImmigrationVoice detailing
this protest.
As always, you folks at <TV Station> have always given unbiased coverage to
events, both local and nation wide. I hope you will cover this story
and bring to light this case of cheating by the USCIS and Dept. of
State.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me @ <your-number/contact info>
Best regards,
<Your-name>
REFERENCES:
-----------------------
http://www.immigrationvoice.org
News recording of the Coverage by NBC Nightly news:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVhgb6yoc8w
Thanks for your efforts, this is exactly what we need.
2011 Glorified, dignified, the sun
narendery
08-18 11:52 AM
I received the below emails
on 8/15 - Current Status: Card production ordered
on 8/16 - Current Status: Notice mailed welcoming the new permanent resident. On August 16, 2008, we mailed you a notice that we had registered this customer's new permanent resident status. Please follow any instructions on the notice. Your new permanent resident card should be mailed within 60 days following this registration or after you complete any ADIT processing referred to in the welcome notice, whichever is later. If you move before you get your new card call customer service. You can also receive automatic e-mail updates as we process your case. Just follow the link below to register.
What is the Audit processing ?
on 8/15 - Current Status: Card production ordered
on 8/16 - Current Status: Notice mailed welcoming the new permanent resident. On August 16, 2008, we mailed you a notice that we had registered this customer's new permanent resident status. Please follow any instructions on the notice. Your new permanent resident card should be mailed within 60 days following this registration or after you complete any ADIT processing referred to in the welcome notice, whichever is later. If you move before you get your new card call customer service. You can also receive automatic e-mail updates as we process your case. Just follow the link below to register.
What is the Audit processing ?
more...
franklin
07-05 11:17 AM
Guys
this is pathetic.. wake up can you not spend 30$ from your pockets to make this thing happen? Why would you not want to do something that is so different and would be effective if all of us do it together.
cmon, arise,awake.
Sorry - I had no idea what this thread was about.
this is pathetic.. wake up can you not spend 30$ from your pockets to make this thing happen? Why would you not want to do something that is so different and would be effective if all of us do it together.
cmon, arise,awake.
Sorry - I had no idea what this thread was about.
my2cents
04-30 05:08 PM
Look Here
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
look here at
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/usc...0045f3d6a1RCRD
"Though we still have challenges to overcome, USCIS is currently showing improvements as a result of process improvements. As of April 25, 2008, USCIS had adjudicated over 65 percent of its FY 2008 target for employment-based visas. With five months to go in FY 2008, this is a strong start. We plan to continue implementing process improvements and new reporting mechanisms for managing these important applications. "
It means they have used 90K Visa out of 140-150K ..it means 50K visa left for next 5 month..not sure how much visa dates wlll be moved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
look here at
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/usc...0045f3d6a1RCRD
"Though we still have challenges to overcome, USCIS is currently showing improvements as a result of process improvements. As of April 25, 2008, USCIS had adjudicated over 65 percent of its FY 2008 target for employment-based visas. With five months to go in FY 2008, this is a strong start. We plan to continue implementing process improvements and new reporting mechanisms for managing these important applications. "
It means they have used 90K Visa out of 140-150K ..it means 50K visa left for next 5 month..not sure how much visa dates wlll be moved.
more...
unitednations
03-08 04:18 PM
I came on extension. I think they are more critical about the companies with whom you are working for. All my friends with extended their visa with no problems. I it is very hard to conclude on this. But scares every one if we keep saying they can not extend their visa.
Be prepared with good documentation and you should be fine.
I don't work with L-1 companies.
I know of this because many of them have h-1b's and want to know how to switch.
Be prepared with good documentation and you should be fine.
I don't work with L-1 companies.
I know of this because many of them have h-1b's and want to know how to switch.
2010 Looking at the sky
cool_desi_gc
08-18 06:37 PM
Sushilup...I am in the same boat.Filed on Jul 10th and no signs of approval.
more...
Naveen
07-09 05:54 PM
go for it!!. hope Naveen wont mind.
Darn it! I will be careful next time :) Thanks for correcting my mistake.
Darn it! I will be careful next time :) Thanks for correcting my mistake.
hair sun in the sky.
always_hopeful
11-17 09:24 PM
Done. Sent emails from myself & wife.
more...
GreenCardLegion
03-09 09:18 PM
And worst is the lottery...
And I know a guy (a restaurant waiter from Nepal) got his GC in frikkin 14 months. And this was 5 years ago when I had just applied and now even today mine is still pending and that Nepali waiter who could not speak 4 words in English is now a Citizen and whenever I go to this restaurant for a buffet he keeps laughing at me and he is still a waiter in the same restaurant. I know him for 6 years. I get enraged at this countrys immigration policy. And I have met about 5 cabbies (Somalia, Pakistan, Sudan) etc etc who came here by winning visa lottery. And they are all citizens or GC holders. This is a mockery. This country has finally started to SUCK big time.
And I know a guy (a restaurant waiter from Nepal) got his GC in frikkin 14 months. And this was 5 years ago when I had just applied and now even today mine is still pending and that Nepali waiter who could not speak 4 words in English is now a Citizen and whenever I go to this restaurant for a buffet he keeps laughing at me and he is still a waiter in the same restaurant. I know him for 6 years. I get enraged at this countrys immigration policy. And I have met about 5 cabbies (Somalia, Pakistan, Sudan) etc etc who came here by winning visa lottery. And they are all citizens or GC holders. This is a mockery. This country has finally started to SUCK big time.
hot in the southwestern sky
trueguy
07-27 07:29 PM
I agree. If "vertical spillover" occurs again, the only benefit would go to EB3-ROW.
It is very very difficult to convince anyone to overflow EB2 ROW -> EB3 ROW -> EB3 I (leaving EB2 I out of loop). (eventhough USCIS did it in past)
If someone tries to re-interprete, it will end up like:EB2 ROW -> EB3 ROW -> EB2I -> EB3 I, still no real benefit to EB3 I; only EB2 I will loose with some benefit to EB3 ROW.
Bottom line is, we need more visa numbers and that's what we need to campaign for. May it be recapture, or STEM exemption or anything else.
I am not saying this just because I am EB2, but these are the facts. Additionally, there is a big chance of new immigration law as soon as new president comes (likely some form of CIR) and we need to be prepared to have our agenda included in that; rather than splitting ourselves.
Earlier it was like this:
EB2 ROW --> EB3 ROW
If any left over after that then remaining numbers were equally divided between EB2-I/C and EB3-I/C so both EB2-I and EB3-I were getting equal share of spillover. Thats the way it should be.
It is very very difficult to convince anyone to overflow EB2 ROW -> EB3 ROW -> EB3 I (leaving EB2 I out of loop). (eventhough USCIS did it in past)
If someone tries to re-interprete, it will end up like:EB2 ROW -> EB3 ROW -> EB2I -> EB3 I, still no real benefit to EB3 I; only EB2 I will loose with some benefit to EB3 ROW.
Bottom line is, we need more visa numbers and that's what we need to campaign for. May it be recapture, or STEM exemption or anything else.
I am not saying this just because I am EB2, but these are the facts. Additionally, there is a big chance of new immigration law as soon as new president comes (likely some form of CIR) and we need to be prepared to have our agenda included in that; rather than splitting ourselves.
Earlier it was like this:
EB2 ROW --> EB3 ROW
If any left over after that then remaining numbers were equally divided between EB2-I/C and EB3-I/C so both EB2-I and EB3-I were getting equal share of spillover. Thats the way it should be.
more...
house For the Sun, Seen By Sky-
akhilmahajan
04-23 11:38 AM
My understanding is after 180 days of 485 filing, even if the employer revokes the approved 140, the 485 application does not get affected if you apply AC21 and let USCIS know that you have changed employment and the job duties are similar. Is it true? or is there is any risk if employer revokes 140?
As per the Yates memo, we are covered once 180 days have passed since filing 485.
If the employer revokes 140, then USCIS will issue a RFE, most probably NOID on your 485. AC-21 papers filed or not, its up to the officer who is handling your case. Even if you sent the AC-21 papers, he/she still can issue a NOID.
Then it will up to you to prove that changing jobs was with in rules. A lot of people do it and get GC's. Its a common practice and is now becoming more visible.
So, just be cautious with the job change and make sure your job responsibilties are as close as mentioned on the labor.
I hope it helps.
GO IV GO. TOGETHER WE CAN.
As per the Yates memo, we are covered once 180 days have passed since filing 485.
If the employer revokes 140, then USCIS will issue a RFE, most probably NOID on your 485. AC-21 papers filed or not, its up to the officer who is handling your case. Even if you sent the AC-21 papers, he/she still can issue a NOID.
Then it will up to you to prove that changing jobs was with in rules. A lot of people do it and get GC's. Its a common practice and is now becoming more visible.
So, just be cautious with the job change and make sure your job responsibilties are as close as mentioned on the labor.
I hope it helps.
GO IV GO. TOGETHER WE CAN.
tattoo sun in the sky
buddyinsd
08-26 01:47 PM
Whats ur PD? U r not current in Aug right?
No. It is a good company and are very careful with things. I have never been in consulting. One good thing they did unlike other companies is they anticipated career growth and filed GC for a higher position and I could gladly accept promotion in my career.
No. It is a good company and are very careful with things. I have never been in consulting. One good thing they did unlike other companies is they anticipated career growth and filed GC for a higher position and I could gladly accept promotion in my career.
more...
pictures You are the sun in my day,
ramus
07-07 12:05 PM
Hi,
Please join NC state
chapter if you have not yet. I am also talking to couple of members from Raleigh and we thinking to go and meet senator Burr if we get appointment. I will keep you in the loop. We can discuss this on our state chapter.
Thank you for your interest.
I live in Raleigh, NC and am willing to come to DC. I will try and check if any of my friends are interested.
Please join NC state
chapter if you have not yet. I am also talking to couple of members from Raleigh and we thinking to go and meet senator Burr if we get appointment. I will keep you in the loop. We can discuss this on our state chapter.
Thank you for your interest.
I live in Raleigh, NC and am willing to come to DC. I will try and check if any of my friends are interested.
dresses sky with the sun causing
JazzByTheBay
09-28 04:36 PM
Given the number of questions and concerns IV members have about AC21 in general and "what after EAD/AP", it makes sense to coordinate with USCIS (and lawmakers if required) on this and get some favorable responses that allay everyone's concerns.
If EAD+AP are like a "provisional GC", USCIS should perhaps not delve too much into the job description of work done after the 180 days past AOS filing, imo. Just as in the case of GCs, the bar of intent to be employed in that job is met by working for that employer for 90-180 days (the latter to be on the safe side). The only reason this is such a huge issue is because of the unreasonable waiting time induced on the GC process due to retrogression.
As a result, folks from retrogression-affected countries suffer from these anxities, whereas those from unaffected countries get their GCs, and are free birds after the 90-180 day period.
It's unreasonable to expect folks from retrogressed countries to be employed in the same position, or to otherwise limit their options by imposing restrictions of new job being the same job description as the one on the approved labor cert.
jazz
First there is not enough AC21 cases to give feed back how their 485s were handled (approved/detail of RFE/denied) due to job change. Becase, almost all guys who used ac21 still in waiting game due to retrogression.
The main thing what I see here is, USCIS has not yet published the final regulation to interpret AC21 act, even after 7 years of passing AC21 act. They are issuing internal field office memo. These memos are non-binding. In other words, one cannot firmly relay on memos or challange the USCIS decision on AC21 portability according to these memos.
However, sofar, these memos are very favorable to workers, including allowing self-employment, one can port even before 140 approval ect...However, USCIS were cautioning in each memos, that the final regulation may be restrictive than memos. If they took restrictive position in final regulation, it will be a huge problem for most peoples, as they might have violated the final regulation.
Another issue is, definition of "same or similar occupational classification". This is going to be very subjective based on how uscis adjudicator going to compare old and new jobs. The memo says by comparing job duties both old and new jobs and based on SOC or ONET code of old and new job they have to decide both jobs are same or similar. As there is no clear regulation it is big issue to go howmuch level of similarity between jobs. For example one guy may think "database administrator" and "network administrator" are similar job to port. The USCIS may think it may not. It is not quantified.
I feel IV should advocate on liberal/quantifyable defintion for similar jobs in AC21 interpretation. For example, all computer professional jobs should be considered as similar jobs as well as all engineering jobs should be considered similar to port. For example mining engineer can port to chemical engineer job etc...
Also, if any one port to self employment in similar job, there is no much information available wheter one should open a company in his/her name or not (by just working in 1099 etc.. for multiple positions). This needs to have a flexible option for workers, like one can work in 1099 w/o opening a bussiness.
Also, IV should advocate on not to have any restrictive interpretation in final regulation.
If EAD+AP are like a "provisional GC", USCIS should perhaps not delve too much into the job description of work done after the 180 days past AOS filing, imo. Just as in the case of GCs, the bar of intent to be employed in that job is met by working for that employer for 90-180 days (the latter to be on the safe side). The only reason this is such a huge issue is because of the unreasonable waiting time induced on the GC process due to retrogression.
As a result, folks from retrogression-affected countries suffer from these anxities, whereas those from unaffected countries get their GCs, and are free birds after the 90-180 day period.
It's unreasonable to expect folks from retrogressed countries to be employed in the same position, or to otherwise limit their options by imposing restrictions of new job being the same job description as the one on the approved labor cert.
jazz
First there is not enough AC21 cases to give feed back how their 485s were handled (approved/detail of RFE/denied) due to job change. Becase, almost all guys who used ac21 still in waiting game due to retrogression.
The main thing what I see here is, USCIS has not yet published the final regulation to interpret AC21 act, even after 7 years of passing AC21 act. They are issuing internal field office memo. These memos are non-binding. In other words, one cannot firmly relay on memos or challange the USCIS decision on AC21 portability according to these memos.
However, sofar, these memos are very favorable to workers, including allowing self-employment, one can port even before 140 approval ect...However, USCIS were cautioning in each memos, that the final regulation may be restrictive than memos. If they took restrictive position in final regulation, it will be a huge problem for most peoples, as they might have violated the final regulation.
Another issue is, definition of "same or similar occupational classification". This is going to be very subjective based on how uscis adjudicator going to compare old and new jobs. The memo says by comparing job duties both old and new jobs and based on SOC or ONET code of old and new job they have to decide both jobs are same or similar. As there is no clear regulation it is big issue to go howmuch level of similarity between jobs. For example one guy may think "database administrator" and "network administrator" are similar job to port. The USCIS may think it may not. It is not quantified.
I feel IV should advocate on liberal/quantifyable defintion for similar jobs in AC21 interpretation. For example, all computer professional jobs should be considered as similar jobs as well as all engineering jobs should be considered similar to port. For example mining engineer can port to chemical engineer job etc...
Also, if any one port to self employment in similar job, there is no much information available wheter one should open a company in his/her name or not (by just working in 1099 etc.. for multiple positions). This needs to have a flexible option for workers, like one can work in 1099 w/o opening a bussiness.
Also, IV should advocate on not to have any restrictive interpretation in final regulation.
more...
makeup 3Suns in Aquamarine Sky,
lost_in_migration
05-01 05:31 PM
4. INA Section 203(e) provides that family-sponsored and employment-based preference visas be issued to eligible immigrants in the order in which a petition in behalf of each has been filed. Section 203(d) provides that spouses and children of preference immigrants are entitled to the same status, and the same order of consideration, if accompanying or following to join the principal. The visa prorating provisions of Section 202(e) apply to allocations for a foreign state or dependent area when visa demand exceeds the per-country limit. These provisions apply at present to the following oversubscribed chargeability areas: CHINA-mainland born, INDIA, MEXICO, and PHILIPPINES.
From the text highlighted above can we infer that EB principal applicant's PD will be applied to EB dependent (irrespective of whether the visa number is taken from EB or FB) ?
http://www.uscis.gov/propub/ProPubVAP.jsp?dockey=c9fef57852dc066cfe16a4cb81683 8a4
203(d) => Treatment of Family Members. - A spouse or child as defined in subparagraph (A), (B), (C), (D), or (E) of section 101(b)(1) shall, if not otherwise entitled to an immigrant status and the immediate issuance of a visa under subsection (a), (b), or (c), be entitled to the same status, and the same order of consideration provided in the respective subsection, if accompanying or following to join, the spouse or parent.
same status can be EB GC or just GC ?? If it is EB GC then this thread can RIP
From the text highlighted above can we infer that EB principal applicant's PD will be applied to EB dependent (irrespective of whether the visa number is taken from EB or FB) ?
http://www.uscis.gov/propub/ProPubVAP.jsp?dockey=c9fef57852dc066cfe16a4cb81683 8a4
203(d) => Treatment of Family Members. - A spouse or child as defined in subparagraph (A), (B), (C), (D), or (E) of section 101(b)(1) shall, if not otherwise entitled to an immigrant status and the immediate issuance of a visa under subsection (a), (b), or (c), be entitled to the same status, and the same order of consideration provided in the respective subsection, if accompanying or following to join, the spouse or parent.
same status can be EB GC or just GC ?? If it is EB GC then this thread can RIP
girlfriend The Sun and the Sky
payur
03-08 04:07 PM
If you look at what you dont have in life, you have NOTHING; If you look at what you have in life, you have EVERYTHING
I hope this helps:)
I hope this helps:)
hairstyles in our sky after the Sun
sledge_hammer
02-12 01:52 PM
You have still not answered my question - where did you get the idea that I am here self imposing high standards? You have talked about everything else but that. So you have decided to take refuge by not answering the main reason why I said you are making accusations.
And just to prove that you are not off the mark, you are confusing everyone else who is reading the posts, between being on the right side morally and having a high standard in general! Again, get this into your head before you start typing more nonsense.
I totally get that people like you need to feel like everyone is more or equally corrupt than themselves, and that you try very hard to push down someone's throat that they are also as flawed as you are. Its ok, I understand! You're in that state of mind right now, that's why you're after me for 3-4 posts arleady asking me to accept that I'm not morally sincere!
Its time you go back to being in an artificially blissful state of mind thinking that you have proven everyone on this planet who dare speak of ethics and moral to be somehow riding on a high horse.
I know people like you, they are a dime a dozen! I do not have to pander to your misguided statements anymore!
"self-imposed" as in 'chosen people' - as to subscribe to a higher standard to fulfill some expectation. It is not an accusation, it is called underlying presumptions in your posts.
" I did not convey my intentions clearly" - then your comm skills are not much as you have presumptively touted them to be when you shot down the other guy. I am just pointing out, before pontificating, try self-analysis.
And just to prove that you are not off the mark, you are confusing everyone else who is reading the posts, between being on the right side morally and having a high standard in general! Again, get this into your head before you start typing more nonsense.
I totally get that people like you need to feel like everyone is more or equally corrupt than themselves, and that you try very hard to push down someone's throat that they are also as flawed as you are. Its ok, I understand! You're in that state of mind right now, that's why you're after me for 3-4 posts arleady asking me to accept that I'm not morally sincere!
Its time you go back to being in an artificially blissful state of mind thinking that you have proven everyone on this planet who dare speak of ethics and moral to be somehow riding on a high horse.
I know people like you, they are a dime a dozen! I do not have to pander to your misguided statements anymore!
"self-imposed" as in 'chosen people' - as to subscribe to a higher standard to fulfill some expectation. It is not an accusation, it is called underlying presumptions in your posts.
" I did not convey my intentions clearly" - then your comm skills are not much as you have presumptively touted them to be when you shot down the other guy. I am just pointing out, before pontificating, try self-analysis.
pret_23
01-30 05:04 PM
And none of us should even complain when millions of illegals are suddenly made legal by the Government and they jump the line in front of us for no fault of ours and there are EB3s still waiting from 2001. The illegals have taken a risk right by jumping across the border and staying here illegally???
:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Yes its tough but trust me if we dont have illegals in america nobody would have even bothered abt CIR.And, in the current market situation they would have reduced H1B quota also....
:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Yes its tough but trust me if we dont have illegals in america nobody would have even bothered abt CIR.And, in the current market situation they would have reduced H1B quota also....
atlfp
05-02 11:14 AM
This seems to be a backup bill in case CIR fails. Let figure out someway to sink CIR then. :)
-- removing unnecessay quote...- Moderator
-- removing unnecessay quote...- Moderator
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